Tuesday, October 2, 2012

The New JFP: Some Suggestions

I've had a chance to sit down and familiarize myself with the new JFP. My overall impression is that it's a decent first draft. If they get some kinks ironed out, there's a lot of potential for this to be good. But right now, there are some problems, most of which seem to me to be related to the fact (I think it's a fact, anyway) that this thing was put together very quickly.

And I don't mean that as a criticism, exactly. Since taking over as ED (just in August, right?), Amy Ferrer seems to have moved extremely quickly to get a new JFP system set up. I think that counts for a lot. After years of being ignored by Schrader, we have an ED who is paying attention to us and trying to help. I cannot begin to imagine David Schrader leaving a comment on this blog, or reading it, or even knowing about it. Let alone implementing a suggestion that was made here or on Philosophers Anonymous or something.

And this is important function of the APA. PhilJobs is great, and the Phylo jobs board and wiki are great. It's great that there are volunteers who do this, and who do a good job. But the profession needs to have an official job market service center. It would not be at all kosher to just leave the JFP exclusively in the hands of volunteers--however good at it they may be.

That said, there are a number of areas for improvement. I don't claim to be the first to have mentioned all of these, but I'm too lazy to go back through yesterday's comments and cite sources. For the same reason, I'm not going to make any attempt to compile a complete list of suggestions. These are just the main things that stood out to me as I was browsing around last night and this morning.

(I'd also like to point out that I strongly agree with Jaded's remarks yesterday regarding constructive criticism. I'm trying not to just complain and stuff. I'm trying to complain constructively.)


  • The AOS/AOC stuff should be displayed on the ad thumbnail. Ok. I see that this has been fixed. But it seems to me that the AOS and the AOC fields are not adequately distinguished.  
  • There should be a way to get all the ads to display on a single page.
  • The AOS/AOC tags don't work very well--I click on the tag for my AOS and I get a lot of stuff not in my AOS. Which makes me worry that I'm also not getting everything in my AOS. 
  • The "open" AOS/AOC tag returns ads that are not open.
  • The AOS/AOC tag thing doesn't seem to distinguish between AOS and AOC.
  • Does using the "filter" function with the checkboxes for "grant/fellowship" etc. negate the AOS/AOC tag filter? There doesn't seem to be any way to confirm or disconfirm this. The UI at PhilJobs is a good model here--you check some boxes in one area, and then you check some more in another area, and the boxes in the first area stay checked. This UI has no boxes for areas of specialization or competence. 
  • When you "star" an ad, it should be marked as starred on the thumbnail.

That's how it seems to me, anyways.

--Mr. Zero

62 comments:

Anonymous said...

The APA should outsource JFP to PhilJobs. Just (i) pay the PhilJobs team to keep doing what they are doing and (ii) force departments to publish in PhilJobs. Even if JFP worked well, we would not need two sites to do the same job.

Fritz Allhoff said...

*We* might not need it, but the APA needs the ad revenues. (I forget what they are, but it's over $10k/year.) No way they hand this off, at least before nobody advertises on the JFP in the first place. It's actually a fair question whether PhilJobs is even ethical given: (1) it (eventually) takes money from the APA, which might be a bad thing; and, (2), some of its ad listings are taken directly from the JFP, which raises issues about stealing information. I don't really care one way or the other, but PhilJobs is bad for the APA for sure.

Anonymous said...

We should ask what's good for us, not what's good for the APA. This APA thing becomes too much like organized religion, serving the purposes of the organization rather than the laity. I was hoping Amy will take us to the Promised Land.

Anonymous said...

Another suggestion: seems to me that rather than (e.g.) 'Assistant Professor of Philosophy' being bold and in large print ad after ad, it should be '[institution name]' that is bold and in large print. Oder?

Anonymous said...

1:43PMs raises exactly the right question: the APA's biggest error here isn't on the software side, but in the fact that they've wasted a lot of our fees trying to squash what was an excellent solution. Is that how a non-profit organization that represents all of us should behave?

Fritz Allhoff: let's remember that PhilJobs and Phylo were both created over a year ago when the APA was doing nothing, and that the APA would have continued to do nothing without them (because the APA only serves the AP-- see above). They tried to help, not to steal the APA's business.

Instead of wasting its time competing as a business where it can't, the APA should invest membership fees into something useful. Maybe that will make people want to join or pay more fees.

Mr. Zero said...

Hi 1:43 and 5:13,

There are some things I don't understand. 1. if the APA pays the PhilJobs people to keep it up, where does the money come from? As Prof. Allhoff points out, the APA doesn't even pay itself to publish the JFP--it charges for the ads. 2. How has the APA tried to squash PhilJobs?

I mean, I think it's sort of obvious that the APA has not just a right but an obligation to maintain the JFP. When people compare the APA unfavorably with the national associations/organizations of other disciplines--and literally every comparison is unfavorable--it's always because because of how much better the other discipline's association manages its job market situation (or whatever). It's never because the other organization has ceded that job to an unofficial volunteer corps.

For another thing, the APA has an obligation to set and enforce rules about how search committees conduct their searches--including rules against bedroom interviews and unfair discrimination. As far as I know, the principle (and only) weapon they have is the JFP. Either you flag the ads of the offending departments, or you just don't run the ads at all. This is something that an unofficial volunteer corps is not well-positioned to do. When the APA, at the urging of its membership, takes a stand against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, for example, it has the weight of the profession behind it. The unofficial volunteer corps, on the other hand, has no standing to speak for the profession at large.

Anonymous said...

Years ago I realized how inept and unethical the APA is. I was treated unfairly and discriminated against by the institution I was working for. I asked the APA Ethics Committee to review the matter and consider censoring the institution. They supported the institution's decision to terminate me and deny me my last pay check. Years later I spoke to someone who was privy to the deliberations. He told me that the chair of the committee was bribed by the vice president of the institution. The APA is corrupt to the core. We should all stop paying our fees and protest the incompetence and corruption of this organization.

Anonymous said...

Hm.
You actually allowed that disgusting slanderous 7:31 through? I can't understand why you're moderating the comments at all, then.

Mr. Zero said...

I looked at it for a long time. I very seriously considered deleting it. It's definitely a very serious accusation against someone, somewhere. It is almost certainly not true, and it's completely unsubstantiated. But all the "details" are so vague and obscure that I'm not really sure it actually manages to make any actual claim. There's definitely no reason to believe it, whatever it is.

And, I think the comment at 7:31 goes to illustrate how silly this recent (as in, this afternoon, on this thread) bout of "anti-APA" stuff is. As if you can seriously suggest that people boycott the APA because of an anonymous report that an unnamed informant says that somebody bribed somebody else many years ago. Or that this has anything to do with the JFP.

But I can see where someone would think that letting this comment through was a mistake, and that the comment was over the line. Maybe it was, and if so, I apologize.

Anonymous said...


Has anyone noticed this job:

UIC Post-Doctoral Research Associate in Food Studies

What the f is food studies?

FemFilosofer said...

I'm torn. I've done my fair share of APA-bashing in recent years, and I think much of that was justified given how poorly managed the organization was and how much I was paying to be a member (especially when I couldn't pay the student rate but was still without a job).

I think the organization, on the whole, is being responsive to membership, which is a very good sign. As others have pointed out, this is long overdue. I think those who give up on the APA because of some user-unfriendliness in the JFP should remember how bad things have been; and also remember that we're an organization with many older, established members who can be very resistant to wholesale changes in how things work.

I don't think the APA should outsource advertising, for two reasons. First, and as Mr. Zero has already said, the APA needs to have the power to censure organizations for unethical or illegal behavior. Publishing ads in the JFP and/or refusing placement service at the Eastern have been ways to do this. They are not perfect, but if we want them to have a different kind of censuring power, we'd have figure out what that is. Second, many states require that schools advertise for national-search jobs in "trade or field publications" or some other specialized location. Phylo and PhilJobs (as good and as user friendly as they are) might not meet this criterion, and CHE and IHE might be too generalist to meet this criterion.

So, I think the Job-publishing function ought to remain with the APA, and we should recognize how far the organization has come in just a couple months, and help them make the thing work better--by using it, and providing constructive feedback.

Now, why am I torn? Well, I got a job. And I don't have to pay dues to the APA anymore unless I want to. So, I recognize that I am not invested in this problem in the same way that many are. But as a faculty member, I am very invested in the functions the APA serves that I've listed above.

Anonymous said...

7:57 here.

Hm, actually, I see your point, Mr. Zero.

Anonymous said...

@ anon Oct 2 8:35pm
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=food+studies

Anonymous said...

Having the "featured" ads display at the top of EVERY single page is extremely annoying.

It is also tacky as s--t.

Anonymous said...

Agreed, 6:32. They're paying attention though: as of this morning, the number of ads appearing on each page is much greater. Now if only they'd follow some of the rest of our advice: Mr Zero's in this post; 3:24's above; relocate featured ads to a side-bar; etc.

Dr. Prof. Yikes said...

Anyone else applying for the Univ. of Maryland job in Muleshoe, Texas?

Anonymous said...

Keep in mind that philjobs does not present themselves as just another option. they are actively trying to replace and undermine the JFP. Just read:

http://philjobs.org/job/whyphiljobs

Especially telling is the prominently displayed quote by Antony Eagle (though all of the JFP bashing on the site is relevant).

Anonymous said...

The featured ads occur twice: at the top of the page and among the rest of the ads. These ads are highlighted at the bottom of the page, and so the occurrence on the top serves only to annoy us. I will not join Occupy APA for this reason, but if the list on the top can be omitted, that will be nice.

Anonymous said...

I like the option to "star" jobs. But I think I'd also like the option to "X-out" jobs: you know, so I never see that job again. I don't trust the filters to narrow down the results for me. I do trust my ability to read an ad and decide its not for me.

Is there a way to do this that I'm not seeing?

zombie said...

Muleshoe, Texas is a well-known location of Virgin Mary sightings, hence the location of the University of Maryland, dedicated to the scholarly study of Marian artifacts and ephemera.

Anonymous said...

7:32 AM

I've noticed this as well. You would think that philjobs would be content with just putting out a solid site. The bragging/putdowns of JFP are low-class.

Anonymous said...

Why is it okay to require people to pay membership dues in a professional organization in order to see what jobs are available in that profession? I can see why the APA would require employers to pay for ads. But what's the justification for walling the ads?

PhilJobs is free for users. So is Academic Jobs Online. Why should the APA be gatekeepers?

Anonymous said...

Are you employed by the APA? Just curious. There is a funny old man in their employ who says 'hm' all the time. If so, thanks for joining us and helping Zero police our comments. We would hate to slander your perfect reputation.

Anonymous said...

Is Phylo essentially dead as a go-to place for job ads? Seems like it always has an error message at the top, and it doesn't include nearly as many jobs as PhilJobs and the JFP. Just wondering whether other people even bother checking it anymore?

Anonymous said...

Let's all start a breakaway association. No fees. No job ads. All volunteers. No massive unwieldy organization run by incompetent, power-grubbing people. A decentralized association for all and run by all. Isn't that what Socrates would do? The APA is run on fear, not vision. Fear that it will become obsolete. News to the APA leadership: it is already obsolete. The time has come for a major change!

Anonymous said...

7:16

How protestant of you. Enjoy the endless schisms.

zombie said...

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.

Anonymous said...

The irrationality of those who believe that the APA will improve is starting to resemble Catholic orthodoxy. Even the smoker tables resemble very public confessionals. "Forgive me Father for I have sinned. It has been 6 years that I have been on the job market, lusting after a tenure track job preferably at your institution. With the divine guidance of the APA and it's three divisional meetings I hope to find salvation and eventually enter the priesthood."

Anonymous said...

"And this is important function of the APA. PhilJobs is great, and the Phylo jobs board and wiki are great. It's great that there are volunteers who do this, and who do a good job. But the profession needs to have an official job market service center. It would not be at all kosher to just leave the JFP exclusively in the hands of volunteers--however good at it they may be."

Why? First, 'the profession' is not just American, even if many philosophers are located there, so quite why a national organisation like the APA has to play this role is not clear. But why do we need the professional organisation to run a job ads anyway (except of course that it cross-subsidises the other activities of the APA)? And I just don't get the further point about volunteers—just because the PhilJobs people wrote a grant proposal to provide seed funding rather than getting the money from departments via ad fees, that makes them…what exactly? 'Not kosher', but what does that mean: less professional, or less responsible, or the ads less official, or what? I see no evidence of any of those things; if anyone is running a responsible and professional job ad service here, it's not the APA.

Anonymous said...

7:16, the incompetent power-grubbers are... Amy Ferrer? Michael Bratman, Stephanie Lewis, and Walter-Sinnott Armstrong? Or Manuel Vargas, Anita Silvers, and Paula Gottlieb?

I'm confused. Can't follow the revolution without a scorecard.

Mr. Zero said...

Hi Anon 5:18 AM,

Please see my comment at October 2, 5:17 PM. It's not that PhilJobs doesn't charge for the ads; it's that they don't represent the (American segment of the) profession.

If Anon 7:16's breakaway organization doesn't have any job ads, you can count me out.

cautiously optimistic said...

"The irrationality of those who believe that the APA will improve is starting to resemble Catholic orthodoxy."

It's already improving. So that's evidence that it will improve.

David Chalmers said...

At PhilJobs we're not aiming to undermine the APA. I'm a life member of the APA and I want it to be a successful organization. We're just trying to ensure that job seekers worldwide have the best service possible available to them. The existence of PhilJobs seems to have already nudged the APA toward improving their service. I'm impressed by what Amy Ferrer has done so far, but obviously JFP is not there yet. We'll occasionally highlight contrasts between PhilJobs and JFP just to make obvious to job seekers and advertisers why they should use PhilJobs. If this helps nudge the APA toward improving their service further still, then that's terrific. If it doesn't, then at least there will be a high-quality alternative. We're also open to co-operation between PhilJobs and the APA and other national organizations. In the meantime, I think there is a clear need for a high-quality international service for job seekers, and we're happy to be providing that at PhilJobs.

Anonymous said...

Hey, look, CUA just advertised for a 'Priest-Scholar' on PhilJobs. They can't do that: only men can be priests; this violates the APA nondiscrimination policy; and you can post on PhilJobs only if you are following the APA nondiscrimination policy. Let's see some enforcement out there!

Anonymous said...

I want to respond to Fritz Allhoff's claim that PhilJobs listings

"are taken directly from the JFP, which raises issues about stealing information."

This is absurd. Every listing I have ever examined on PhilJobs (and that number is in the 100s) contains a link to an official University Human Resources, or Departmental, website detailing the job requirements etc... These listings are thus public information (even if it is a private institution), placing the information on your Human Resources or Department website for the purposes of attracting applicants, makes it a public advertisement. JFP does not hold a copyright on job listings that are publicly available elswhere. There is no "stealing" here. JFP doesn't own the information in a public job advertisement. If anyone did own that information, it would be the University, but even they would not have a right to complain that information they freely shared with the public was being shared with the public by someone else.

Anonymous said...

To 7:16 and 7:41: Shall we establish a non-prophet organization?

Anonymous said...

7:49

Whatever is meant by discrimination, a pontifical university hiring a priest doesn't qualify. It's comments like this that undermine attempts to combat genuine discrimination.

Anonymous said...

7:16

To answer your question: No. That is not what Socrates would do.

Anonymous said...

7:49: I have three papers published in the Philosophical Review and I am an atheist homosexual jew. Should I apply for a job in the that pontifical university?

David Chalmers said...

7:49: thanks for this. Prima facie the ad is in violation of the APA's nondiscrimination policy, which permits discrimination by religious affiliation only when sex and other relevant attributes aren't criteria for the affiliation in question. JFP is carrying the ad, which makes me wonder whether the APA interprets the policy differently. But given the prima facie violation and given PhilJobs' commitment to follow the APA policy, we have taken the ad down from PhilJobs at least for now.

Anonymous said...

Hold on! I know you are all trying to be constructive and all that ... but let's say it all together "THE NEW JFP REALLY SUCKS!!!"

zombie said...

Hey! David Chalmers was just here. Twice. And not one o' you mutts said "Thanks for Philjobs."

David, thanks for Philjobs.

Anonymous said...

Thanks David!

Anonymous said...

Thanks David(s)!

Not to mention, thanks for PhilPapers and PhilEvents!

Anonymous said...

With regard to the function allowing one to search by 'job type' and 'location', it would be useful to have either a scroll down menu to choose from, or at least some guidelines as to what constitutes a valid input into the relevant fields. (Both Phil Jobs and Phylo are superior in this respect.)

For example, suppose that I want to search for jobs in the UK. On the face of it, it's unclear whether I should enter 'UK', 'United Kingdom', etc. or whether I need to specify a city e.g. 'London, United Kingdom' and then set the 'radius' parameter to an appropriate setting.

In addition, as things stand, I have no idea which cities are valid inputs (I expect London is, but is say Cambridge, or Norwich?).

In any case, it's not that helpful to set the 'radius' parameter to within say 100 miles or 1000 miles of London, UK (note that there is no intermediate value for the 'radius' parameter). Searching for jobs within 100 miles of London fails to take in much beyond the south east of England, while searching within 1000 miles takes in a good deal of Western Europe. (By contrast, it's completely unclear to me why it's necessary to have '1 mile' as a possible setting of the radius parameter ... what would it mean to be within 1 mile of London? Presumably within 1 mile of some (unknown) point within London). That doesn't seem useful to me.

Dr. Prof. Yikes said...

Dear Amy,

Well done on making a lot of improvements on the site since it first launched, and making a lot of the changes suggested here and elsewhere.

In particular, the AOS/AOC is now listed upfront, and there are more than 10 jobs per page, and there are links to the dept. homepage and university (and so on). Overall, MUCH better than when it first launched. Could still be better, in ways. But still, thanks.

Anonymous said...

Sort of OT, but the Interfolio business was puzzling at first, since I already had an expired account. Because of this, Interfolio would not let me use the APA link for the free account. I suppose one could always use a different email account, but I wanted to use my institutional email. So, anyway, if anyone is in my exact same position, simply go to login page for interfolio and when it asks you for money, instead enter this promo code: ma834sa01
Grabbed from the link to interfolio on the APA JFP site. Saved 19$.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe this discussion is still going on. The renovation of the JFP is a rear-guard measure. The collapse of the Centralized APA Big Annual Conference as rite of passage for those entering the profession, which asks those in the profession who can least afford it to spend hundred of dollars for the privilege to undergo the humiliation of the smoker gauntlet, and which is a crushing expense for schools that are likely to strapped for cash for the next several years to send a search committee, is obviously imminent, and we should do all we can to hasten its demise. Chalmers' politic comment about PhilJobs as nudging the APA is a nice way of saying that it's only a matter of time.

Anonymous said...

Actually, the Eastern APA meeting is going strong, despite the drop in the number of in-person interviews.

It might be a bit smaller this year because philosophers don't like Atlanta, but then next year -- or technically the following year -- it might get quite a bit bigger, because of the change of dates.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:02 PM.

Hilarious! Love the messianic rhetoric. Hope others get your joking tone.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the CUA "Priest Scholar" ad, there was a discussion of this kind of case at Leiter's blog (http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2012/05/apa-strengthens-anti-discrimination-stance.html), and the takeaway was that the policy is ambiguous btw. ruling out ads for *particular searches* that discriminate certain groups and ruling out ads from institutions where there is a *regular policy* of doing this. However, there is no one with the authority to decide which interpretation is right, so the policy is basically toothless here.

Meanwhile, my personal experience of CUA suggests that it's very unlikely that they'd tenure a sexually active gay or lesbian faculty member in the School of Philosophy. But once again, there is NO ONE AT ALL with the means or the authority to investigate this question and render a decision (though unsourced hearsay and innuendo are *kinds* of evidence, you know), so once again: toothless!

What a great policy.

Anonymous said...

Is it possible to have an AOS in continental philosophy? Is it sufficient to have an AOS that deals heavily with some figure one considers continental, or is this just code for 'we'd like to hire someone like us'?

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:49 AM:

If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't apply.

But, in answer to your second point, I think it depends on how you read and think about the relevant figures. For example, if you think it is important and interesting to debate whether Nietzche was a fictionalist or error-theorist, you probably need not apply. If you are interested in Deleuze's reading of the will to power, and perhaps how it differs from Richardson's, you should apply.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Continental, check out this inside job: http://philjobs.org/job/show/1267

Who in the world does Continental, Environmental AND Diaspora studies?

Oh, this guy: http://www.du.edu/philosophy/nail.html

Anonymous said...

Please excuse the interruption. Could someone direct me to the pre-existing discussion (if there is one) about taking a job at a community college?

Thanks

zombie said...

3:10 -- Community college discussions crop up variously. Do you have particular questions?

Anonymous said...

3:10 here. Thanks, yes. For one, they are totally off schedule. If they make an offer it'll probably be soon, well before I hear back from or even apply to the rest of my job openings this season. Can I reasonably hold them off until February?

Then there are the other considerations. While they seem like an excellent place with recent awards, I would have only one other philosophy colleague. And I don't yet know what the teaching load will be.

I was wondering what I should be thinking about. And what I should ask them in the interview.

Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Hey, 3:10/4:27 :

I work at a CC. I can probably answer some of this stuff.

"If they make an offer it'll probably be soon, well before I hear back from or even apply to the rest of my job openings this season. Can I reasonably hold them off until February?"

Depends on the school, but probably not. CCs are usually monitored pretty closely by state legislatures, and it's often the case that if a line is empty, the budget line for that position will be eliminated unless its filled. And the fact of the matter is that, when I was on a CC search committee, I would not be interested in hiring someone who wants me to WAIT to hire them until they can see if they can get a "better" job. I might not judge you personally for thinking that this CC position is not ideal for you, but I am looking for someone who thinks it IS ideal for them. "I'll take this job, but only if I don't get a job I like better" is not the attitude I'm looking for in a colleague, and its one I don't need to deal with especially in a market where hundreds of people would probably kill someone for this job.

"Then there are the other considerations. While they seem like an excellent place with recent awards, I would have only one other philosophy colleague." Yep. It's a community college, not a research institution. You would be lucky to have one other philosopher, since most CCs don't have rich undergraduate philosophy programs.

"And I don't yet know what the teaching load will be."

A CC is a public institution, and most of their info is probably discoverable by doing a Google search of their site -- look up their contract and salary ranges (all public info) and their HR process. But it will almost certainly involve teaching 8-12 Intro level courses in (Intro Phil and probably Intro Ethics) classes a year enrolled between 30 and 50 students per class, with full responsibility for the courses, with varying distribution, the opportunity for extra teaching for additional compensation, and a fair amount of service work -- committees on curriculum and the like. There is not likely to be a great deal of variation -- there may be a speciality intro course (logic, political phil, aesthetics, eastern) thrown in here or there, infrequently.


"I was wondering what I should be thinking about."

Do you really like teaching? I mean, really? Like, do you really care about learning how to do it well, and improving your ability to get students to learn? Do you really care about students' education? Are you prepared to work with a student population that is really, truly diverse across many variables, including age, ethnicity, level of academic preparedness, economic background, disability status, race, first language, parental status, veteran status, criminal history? The students are usually non-traditional, may have demanding family lives or work lives, and probably are not well-equipped by their previous experiences on how to be students? This is a job that requires lots of patience and high levels of communication skills. It is a job that is about social justice for people who are typically poor and have been set at a great disadvantage, who have been poorly educated, and who have probably never been taken seriously in an academic setting.
Thanks!

Anonymous said...

I teach at a CC, and personally I love the fact that I don't have to publish to keep my job. Takes tons of pressure off. And at the same time, I am still able to write. Not as much as if I were at 4-year school of course, but I can still do it.

Anonymous said...

3:10/4:27 here:

Thanks very much. That was very helpful!

Anonymous said...

I have an off-topic question for people who have served on search/hiring committees. We hear a lot about how many applications hiring departments get--the numbers are in the hundreds. Of these, how many make it past the initial screening process, and on what basis? What percentage of applications are immediately binned, and why? No doubt the answers to these questions will vary greatly from one search to the next, but I'm just curious about whether the huge numbers we hear about are all (or mostly) coming from applicants who are qualified, or if many of them are on fishing expeditions, applying for every and any job, irrespective of fit.

Anonymous said...

12:08: On the first cut, I remove applications that don't have the relevant AOS/AOC, or no teaching experience or an incomplete file (for example writing sample or letters of recommendation missing or in one case last year, we received just letters of recommendation for one person but nothing else at all). Last year, one-third of the applications were tossed out in the first round for one or more of those reasons. Oh yes and if you have the wrong school in your cover letter or talk lovingly about our grad program when we don't have one, it is unlikely you will survive the first cut.